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Mar 30 2007, 11:52 PM (Post #1)
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Irritated about the lack of concern from my previous web host (WHP: Web Hosting and Promotions, Inc), I decided to issue a dispute with them over the 40 bucks I paid. I believe I deserve the money back when they could not provide the adequate services for me, and if possible, more as compensation for the damages they have caused to Origin. Here are the messages so far:

QUOTE (Jinghao Yan)
Half of my users could not log onto my website, and I know it is not because of my domains. The host is not able to figure out the root of the problem and they are not willing to look it up. They brushed it off with "we cannot fix a problem that does not exist" -- WHEN THE PROBLEM DOES EXIST! I could not keep losing members and activity, so I switched away. Now I am requesting my money back for being so defrauded.


QUOTE (WHP)
Hi, First we do not offer money back guarantee and adding to that your payment was done over 30 days ago. Second the problem simply did not exist. Dns test showed that your site is online, we could see your site and your could see your site. Your users (whatever they claimed) need to check their internet connection as there was simply no problem. Thanks


QUOTE (Jinghao Yan)
The domains did not work most of the time, even at SCU (Santa Clara University), suggesting that it is the DNS servers at WHP that were not functioning correctly. SCU is at the heart of the Silicon Valley and I would not expect it to have any faults in the IT department that would directly correspond to the days during which I was hosted at WHP.

WHP advertises it has free support, but what use is it if it REFUSES to acknowledge the existence of a problem, or even probe its origins and causes? A company's first and foremost PR is its customer. If WHP chooses to abuse, neglect, and defraud its customers like that, I cannot see how it can NOT cease to exist in the coming years.

I was extremely happy when I first got the service, but became concerned when my users notified me (via AIM and email) they cannot access the site most of the time, and the access statistics showed that significant drop. I wasn't quite sure because I did not experience the problem at first, but when tried at my local library, high school, and college (SCU), and subsequently saw that my users are right (and they always are), I decided I must do something. I switched hosts, and have since been experiencing no problems.

WHP has caused me massive devastation in traffic, activity, and reliability. Although legally I believe I must be compensated for the fraud and negligence, I am offering to forget about this month and continue onto the next. I believe that, given the circumstances, my offer is more than generous, for under California law, fraud is treated with utmost severity. Thanks.

Here, the host realizes it is wrong, and tries to deflect the attention away from the issue:
QUOTE (WHP)
Hi, I am little confused to which offer you are referring to. You have opened a paypal complaint before even contacting billing, so I am very unsure what you truly want in this dispute. Thanks

So, I entertain them by responding via email:
QUOTE (Jinghao Yan)
Hello:

I apologize for the paypal dispute; you're right—I should have contacted you directly via billing. And that's what I'm doing right now. I'll get right to the point.

You've read about the difficulties this service has caused me, and I highly regret them because, besides that one problem, I loved the hosting. It was fast, reliable (for me), and generally well-supported. Despite my personal regrets, I am unable to continue service with a host that my users find unappealing. In this case, the lack of appeal comes from the DNS problems many experience.

Therefore, what I sincerely request is a full refund of my payment of 39.50 USD. I too did not believe my users until I asked them to do tracert commands (and other stuff), screenshot their results and problems, etc. The problems are verified at SCU, my local libraries, and some school computers, so I know my users are not lying; I even had friends at MIT and UC Berkeley—arguably the top institutions for technology and science—confirm!

I hope you duly consider my inquiry and request, and make an appropriate response.

Thanks,
Jinghao Yan

Now, realizing they cannot win via conventional argumentation, they resort to their original tactic: denying their involvement in the problem
QUOTE (WHP)
Hi,

Sorry we will not be offering a refund to you. It is very hard to believe about your problem. On your server we have a person from England and the other person from Poland and many other people from
different states. They are not sending any complaints about their site not being visible. Maybe the problem is with your domain, I cannot really tell you as I do not see the facts of the problem.

Before opening the dispute consider contacting for the resolution first in the future.

Best Regards,
Biggest-Hosting.com
Steven Drake

So I retort with a dissection of their line of argument in a move to demonstrate its frailty:
QUOTE (Jinghao Yan)
Oh, so the only reason you won't refund my payment is because you cannot personally "confirm" my users' and my findings? Are you saying I and my users are all lying? Because, from what you've stated, the only way for what you say to be possible is that all who claim the domains sometimes do not work are lying—a bold claim, to say the least. If your contending that we are indeed lying is preventing you from refunding me for your ill-service, I beg you to prove that to be true.

To top it off, you guys LIE to me with this statement: "First we do not offer money back guarantee" when in absolute certainty, you do. From a previous AIM log, you stated that "Free trial offers means that you get 30 days money back guarantee. You can try the plan by signing up for it and then if you do not like it, ask for a refund within 30 days" and that's word-for-word. It is less than business-like to take back that claim when you are called upon to uphold it. This despicable behavior is a shame to the entire industry.

The only reason I did not issue my request for refund within 30 days is because I had hope that you guys would fix the problem. I contacted you guys about the problem very early, as soon as I was notified and as soon as I noticed a marked drop in activity. I even warned you guys, I cannot continue hosting if my users cannot access my sites. Therefore, as far as I and my users are concerned, our services terminated as soon as you guys revealed that you cannot fix the problems. I just decided to give you guys more chances, since I liked your generally prompt and helpful responses to support and such, but this issue was urgent and could not be ignored—and you guys did ignore it.

If I do not see a resolution to your inadequacy, I will seek a solution through my state's Consumer Protection Agency. I hope we can come to a mutually acceptable conclusion.

Thanks,
Jinghao

Apparently some guy pretending to the CEO hops into the scene:
QUOTE (WHP)
Hi,

Well we used to offer money back guarantee until the users like you stopped that service.  My name is Dmitriy and I am the ceo of biggest-hosting.com.  Please consider these few statements.  Who is going to reimburse us for all the time that was spent talking to you on aim?  Who is going to reimburse us for all your support tickets?  Who is going to reimburse us for the time it took to install your needed php component?  I can keep going with this list for over and over so please understand my point.  We cannot have people simply waist our time ask questions and request all sort of things done for 30 days and then ask for refunds.  That is why 30 days money back guarantee wes removed from the site.  On top of that you are a member for 40 days so even that old policy does not apply to your account.  If you do not have anything other to ask then about the refund please do not contact us further as simply whatever was charged was for all the time it took to support you.

Best Regards,
Biggest-Hosting.com
Dmitriy

Comments and assistance, please. I am hoping to see these 40 bucks go into covering for the new host, since Origin's in a bit of a debt to me right now. (more than 20 dollars debt...)
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Mar 31 2007, 12:54 AM (Post #2)
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I wish I could help you out, as it is kind of my job << >> but I know nothing about American consumer/trader law. Most laws are based on providing an accurate service. If you lived in Scotland, you would have your money back already as we have excellent laws covering consumers - everything must be provided within a reasonable time and to satisfactory quality.

But I know nowt about American law on this matter FROWN.GIF
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Mar 31 2007, 04:38 AM (Post #3)
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No need to be constructive or supportive here....

Though am I sorry about the crappy server and you losing your money...I seriously doubt that server is the reason our activity is down. <_<
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Mar 31 2007, 07:15 AM (Post #4)
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You could do several things...

One of these things is to go and hire a lawyer. When you get into these things, you assume that you are getting a reliable and good product that will work for you when you need it to. In this case, you got something that was faulty -- and unless they state it in their statement that they are not liable for anything that doesn't work (in which you would have no case...) -- you can go ahead and sue them. Maybe you can find a lawyer that will do it pro bono for you.

You can start on that by calling a local radio show, hosted by a lawyer named Len Tillem, on KGO AM 810 (I hope you do listen to the radio). You can find listings for that online, and I think he could probably help you get somewhere.

QUOTE
First we do not offer money back guarantee and adding to that your payment was done over 30 days ago.


That statement is stopping you.

Another thing you can also do is talk to Michael Finney, who also has a consumer talk show on KGO AM 810. He's on during Saturdays and you can also email him -- if he finds that your case is good enough, he might go ahead and talk to them himself.

But if all fails, find yourself an offhand job and gain back those $20.



Lastly, do not use caps when you type. Caps implies yelling -- I know you know that, and if they sense any bit of irritability, then they might as well not care. Do realize that there is a sense of professionalism that must be excercised here.

This post has been edited by originAL: Mar 31 2007, 07:16 AM
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Mar 31 2007, 06:30 PM (Post #5)
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Well, good job switching the server. I haven't had any problems at all since you did, and the fact that they won't acknowledge a problem shows their true colors. I wonder if any other sites who use this server have similar problems...
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Mar 31 2007, 07:01 PM (Post #6)
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I just went on to their website (http://biggest-hosting.com/index.php I assume?), and scoped around. I found this...

QUOTE
Our web hosting plans can be described in two phrases: affordable website hosting plans and low cost web hosting plans which come with 24 hour technical support and 99.9% uptime.


I couldn't find anything that related to a privacy policy or a terms of agreement, something that you probably SHOULD find when you go to a website of the sort even before you purchase their service. So I don't know. Read over the Terms of Service from them, and see what you get, and get back to me on that.
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Mar 31 2007, 07:16 PM (Post #7)
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They legally need to have terms and conditions if they were based in the UK << move here, fools stongue.gif

And yeah, Haven, we lost most of our members long before the server switches. We will just need to work at getting the Xt Project up and running, make this place look fresh and new and get them all back ssmile.gif
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Mar 31 2007, 07:53 PM (Post #8)
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Well I think if you're anywhere, you need terms and conditions.

I just can't find them on that website... if it's the right one.
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Mar 31 2007, 08:19 PM (Post #9)
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QUOTE (Garlic Junior @ Mar 30 2007, 05:54 PM)
I wish I could help you out, as it is kind of my job << >> but I know nothing about American consumer/trader law.  Most laws are based on providing an accurate service. If you lived in Scotland, you would have your money back already as we have excellent laws covering consumers - everything must be provided within a reasonable time and to satisfactory quality.

But I know nowt about American law on this matter FROWN.GIF
*


Thanks for your concern though FROWN.GIF. I recalled you were in legal studies, and thought you may be able to offer advice.

QUOTE (originAL @ Mar 31 2007, 12:15 AM)
You could do several things...

One of these things is to go and hire a lawyer.  When you get into these things, you assume that you are getting a reliable and good product that will work for you when you need it to.  In this case, you got something that was faulty -- and unless they state it in their statement that they are not liable for anything that doesn't work (in which you would have no case...) -- you can go ahead and sue them.  Maybe you can find a lawyer that will do it pro bono for you.

You can start on that by calling a local radio show, hosted by a lawyer named Len Tillem, on KGO AM 810 (I hope you do listen to the radio).  You can find listings for that online, and I think he could probably help you get somewhere.

The lawsuit idea's out of the question. Getting 40 bucks is not worth the time and money invested.

QUOTE
That statement is stopping you.

When I paid 40 bucks, I saw a 30 day money back guarantee sign. I don't see it anymore. Fishy.

QUOTE
But if all fails, find yourself an offhand job and gain back those $20.

Lastly, do not use caps when you type.  Caps implies yelling -- I know you know that, and if they sense any bit of irritability, then they might as well not care.  Do realize that there is a sense of professionalism that must be excercised here.
*


I lost 40 bucks to them, not 20 bucks. You are off by a whole 100%.

I use caps for emphasis. You cannot bold, italicize, underline or highlight text in these textboxes. That instance was particularly appropriate because of the ironic nature of their response, which the caps serve to emphasize.

QUOTE (Singularity @ Mar 31 2007, 11:30 AM)
Well, good job switching the server. I haven't had any problems at all since you did, and the fact that they won't acknowledge a problem shows their true colors. I wonder if any other sites who use this server have similar problems...
*


Thanks. It's nice to know that ssmile.gif

QUOTE (originAL @ Mar 31 2007, 12:01 PM)
I just went on to their website (http://biggest-hosting.com/index.php I assume?), and scoped around.  I found this...
I couldn't find anything that related to a privacy policy or a terms of agreement, something that you probably SHOULD find when you go to a website of the sort even before you purchase their service.  So I don't know.  Read over the Terms of Service from them, and see what you get, and get back to me on that.
*


I found everything I needed when I purchased the hosting.

QUOTE (Garlic Junior @ Mar 31 2007, 12:16 PM)
And yeah, Haven, we lost most of our members long before the server switches. We will just need to work at getting the Xt Project up and running, make this place look fresh and new and get them all back ssmile.gif
*


Actually, the drop is quite significant in terms of normal activity (not just posts, but visits per day) from January (pre-WHP) to mid-Feb and mid-March. A seventy percent drop that directly corresponds to the days when we were at this host is no weak clue.
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Mar 31 2007, 09:32 PM (Post #10)
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In terms of the law, Scottish Law varies greatly from English Law, so I wouldn't even know where to begin guiding you in terms of American Law.
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Mar 31 2007, 09:43 PM (Post #11)
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Call the Better Business Bureau then. I'm sure they can do something.
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Apr 1 2007, 01:42 AM (Post #12)
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I found it—transcripts detailing the money back guarantee:
QUOTE
whpincorporated: Free trial offers means that you get 30 days money back guarantee. You can try the plan by signing up for it and then if you do not like it, ask for a refund within 30 days

So it would seem a bit deceptive to say that "we [whp] do[es] not offer money back guarantee".

Messages updated. By the way, "Your contending that ---" is grammatically correct.
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Apr 1 2007, 02:40 AM (Post #13)
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Like I said, Better Business Bureau.

Give them a call, or write:

700 Empey Way # 110
San Jose, CA 95128
(408) 278-7400

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Bette...G=Google+Search

This post has been edited by originAL: Apr 1 2007, 02:42 AM
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Apr 1 2007, 03:29 PM (Post #14)
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LMFAO

Even if you cannot get your money back, you need to report these fools to everyone you can - any business bureaus, consumer advice bureaus, their home state/country advice regulatory bodies.

They are making up and removing policies as they see fit. That 30 Day Money Back thing does apply because it was around when you signed up and you did motion to cancelling within the 30 days. The law may be a little unclear as you gave them extra time, but the fact is the money they are moaning about not being reimbursed is their fault for providing a shitty service that they had to waste time on AIM trying to resolve. It isn't your problem. You paid them for a service, they failed to provide that service, you should get your money back plain and simple.
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Apr 1 2007, 05:12 PM (Post #15)
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QUOTE (Garlic Junior @ Apr 1 2007, 08:29 AM)
LMFAO

Even if you cannot get your money back, you need to report these fools to everyone you can - any business bureaus, consumer advice bureaus, their home state/country advice regulatory bodies.

They are making up and removing policies as they see fit. That 30 Day Money Back thing does apply because it was around when you signed up and you did motion to cancelling within the 30 days. The law may be a little unclear as you gave them extra time, but the fact is the money they are moaning about not being reimbursed is their fault for providing a shitty service that they had to waste time on AIM trying to resolve. It isn't your problem. You paid them for a service, they failed to provide that service, you should get your money back plain and simple.
*


Thanks. That's how I see things, but now they've blocked my email o_o. And Paypal won't resolve the issue because it is not over a tangible object.

*sigh* I guess you're right: If I don't get 40 bucks back, they'll see a loss of significantly more than 40 bucks from customers dropping out <_<
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