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Arizona SB 1070


May 1 2010, 06:49 PM (Post #1)
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The bill, from Wikipedia:

[QUOTE]The law makes it a state misdemeanor crime for an alien to be in the Arizona without registration documents required by federal law,[13] and requires police to make an attempt, when practicable, to determine a person's immigration status if there is reasonable suspicion that the person is an illegal alien,[14] during a police stop for some other offense.[15] Police may arrest a person if there is probable cause that the person is an alien not in possession of required registration documents;[13] a person arrested cannot be released without confirmation of the person's legal immigration status by the federal government pursuant to § 1373© of Title 8 of the United States Code. A first offense carries a fine of at least $500, and up to six months in jail.[13] A person is "presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States" if he or she presents any of the following four forms of identification: (a) a valid Arizona driver license; (b) a valid Arizona nonoperating identification license; © a valid tribal enrollment card or other tribal identification; or (d) any valid federal, state, or local government-issued identification, if the issuer requires proof of legal presence in the United States as a condition of issuance.[14] SB1070 also prohibits state, county, or local officials from limiting or restricting "the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law" and provides that Arizona citizens can sue such agencies or officials to compel such full enforcement.[14][16]

The Problems:

1. What on earth is probable cause?

2. What on earth is a reasonable suspicion? We know that this bill SPECIFICALLY targets undocumented Latino and Latina immigrants coming to the United States. In my interpretation, this law gives Arizona policemen a blank check to stop just about anyone and everyone whom they find suspicious. While there will be training, I don't see anything changing.

Your thoughts? This law isn't so much about undocumented immigrants, because everyone for the most part, agrees that something needs to be done. I feel that this law is poorly executed as it poorly defines (1) how policemen will catch people who are illegally in the country and (2) what an undocumented immigrant looks like.

And if the state can accept this, then what will the rest of the country do?
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May 1 2010, 08:02 PM (Post #2)
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It's kind of like how you need to carry your driver's license when driving. I guess all legal residents will have to carry their official IDs with them, whether it be driver's license, green card, or... (what do citizens have?).

The fact that those who don't carry their proof of legal residency are subject to legal consequences isn't objectionable in my opinion. The only dicey part is giving the police a poorly defined responsibility to catch "suspected" illegal immigrants.

How about you do it like with autos? If you get into an accident, or do something else wrong you can be stopped by the police, at which point not having your license can have bad consequences, but if you drive normally and don't get into trouble—who cares?

The analogy would be to ask for documentation in easy-to-maintain checkpoints. For example, if your car gets totaled and you call the police, you'd better have documentation. Some sort of reference monitor.
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May 1 2010, 11:52 PM (Post #3)
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QUOTE (Jinghao @ May 1 2010, 03:02 PM)
It's kind of like how you need to carry your driver's license when driving. I guess all legal residents will have to carry their official IDs with them, whether it be driver's license, green card, or... (what do citizens have?).

GA has actual IDs for people who don't have drivers licenses.

So they are only checking for legal status if they committed a crime. How is that bad?
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May 2 2010, 01:38 AM (Post #4)
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I think it's fine that you have to produce documentation, but note:

1. Its giving policemen the ability to report on a basis of suspicion. If I'm a white guy and I've always had reservations towards Latinos, it might just give me the will and ability to stop every Latino I see on the street, and why not? The law gives me the ability to. Yes, Gov. Brewer is giving police enforcement the ability to take classes, but that doesn't mean such will lead way to education.

2. If we set this precedence that this kind of enforcement is okay, what is it going to lead to?

3. What is so bad with a guest worker program?
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May 2 2010, 03:27 AM (Post #5)
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Sounds like you all have been listening to the lefty media's interpretation of the bill, rather than even simply reading the few sentences you bolded from wikipedia.

If you look into the past 150 years or so of legal interpretation of 'reasonable suspicion' you will quickly realize that this will not require people to "have their papers" at all times, and this will not allow racist police officers to harass any and all Mexicans. Any court in the country would throw such a law out instantly, including town courts run by Klansmen.

This is simply a case of Arizona moving to prod enforcement of laws that are already "on the books" but not enforced. As relates to immigration, it's kind of like San Diego's wall—the federal government promised one for decades, and it never came. San Diego built one, and slowed illegal passage by 90+%.

I agree that there is a fine line here, and that setting a precedent that reasonable suspicion could be anything, including what you look or talk like, would be dangerous. But that simply is not the case with this law. In fact, if anything, police in Arizona will be extra, super-touchy careful to avoid even coming close to that. So, then, what is reasonable suspicion? Driving with no license...huddling in groups in the back of a white van with no windows...dealing drugs...

...think...what is reasonable suspicion for a cop to search your car for drugs? It's not wearing a hoody...not talking jive. But, it's the smell, a pipe lying on the floor, refusing to answer questions they may legally ask...

...in this case, "are you a citizen of Arizona (therefore, of the U.S.)?"

But, speaking of immigration, do we think it's a problem? Do we think that the border should be "open" to anyone to pass at their choosing? Should there be a wall? Border patrol? What to do with illegal immigrants? What to do to stop more? Should there be national quotas? Do we need immigration at all?

To answer "what's wrong with a guest worker program?", I'll answer with a question...how can you even say that when unemployment hovers around 10% and underemployment around 22% and probably higher?
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May 2 2010, 04:32 AM (Post #6)
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Unemployment for what? Last I checked, undocumented immigrants weren't looking to become computer programmers or business analysts for Google. They are cleaning our bathrooms flipping our burgers and working in the fields picking the crops that you buy at the grocery store. The jobs that your undocumented immigrants have are not the ones the rest of us particularly want to have. They are dead-end careers and exist seasonally.
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May 2 2010, 05:14 AM (Post #7)
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I'm sure janitors love it when they get laid off.
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May 2 2010, 03:20 PM (Post #8)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ May 1 2010, 11:32 PM)
Unemployment for what?  Last I checked, undocumented immigrants weren't looking to become computer programmers or business analysts for Google.  They are cleaning our bathrooms flipping our burgers and working in the fields picking the crops that you buy at the grocery store.  The jobs that your undocumented immigrants have are not the ones the rest of us particularly want to have.  They are dead-end careers and exist seasonally.
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If 'nobody wants to do' jobs like picking crops, wages would increase so that people would want to...if there weren't an outside, illegal source of cheap labor. Flipping burgers? There are PLENTY of high school and college aged people who could and would take those and other "dead end" jobs.
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May 3 2010, 04:28 AM (Post #9)
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I was told garbage men get paid pretty well considering. Middle class.
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May 3 2010, 04:18 PM (Post #10)
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QUOTE (AWESOM-O @ May 2 2010, 11:28 PM)
I was told garbage men get paid pretty well considering. Middle class.
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they get a decent salary for a middle-class job. It's enough to live comfortably.
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May 3 2010, 04:36 PM (Post #11)
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I really don't think the unemployment rate and the number of illegals are in any way related. The vast majority of the unemployed people are those that won't take a job that isn't as good as thier unemployment check. My unemployment check is currently more than the amount I would be making working for minimum wage....wich is funny, considering I was working minimum wage when I got fired, and got the unemployment check.
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May 16 2010, 08:54 PM (Post #12)
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QUOTE ('jose')
If a cop in Arizona pulls me over and says "papers" and I say "scissors", do I win?
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May 17 2010, 02:17 AM (Post #13)
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NICE.
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