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Chinese Ambivalence


Oct 29 2010, 07:13 PM (Post #1)
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Yet more, upon endless, evidence, that the Chinese have absolutely no respect for life, treating living creatures like squirming novelties for their amusement or smug notions of upper-class superiority:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china/1...species-animals

It's not hard to find hundreds of other articles detailing similar phenomena throughout East Asia, specifically China.
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Nov 11 2010, 06:54 PM (Post #16)
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QUOTE (Jodi Gajadar @ Nov 11 2010, 12:54 AM)
Aren't all creatures?
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The rarer and more complex they are, the more "magnificent" and important each individual is. For example, tigers are more "important" than ants.
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Nov 12 2010, 01:41 AM (Post #17)
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QUOTE (Jinghao @ Nov 11 2010, 01:54 PM)
The rarer and more complex they are, the more "magnificent" and important each individual is. For example, tigers are more "important" than ants.
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I don't know if you picked the right example in ants. Do you know anything about ants?
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Nov 14 2010, 05:32 PM (Post #18)
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QUOTE (Jodi Gajadar @ Nov 11 2010, 05:41 PM)
I don't know if you picked the right example in ants. Do you know anything about ants?
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As much as (if not more than) any random person would be expected to know about ants.

Anyway, I picked an extreme example. How about mice, to stay in the same kingdom?
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Nov 16 2010, 07:39 AM (Post #19)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 4 2010, 02:02 AM)
A few things:
1.  Does seeing the early settlers of America leaving hundreds of bison to die on the prairie make you burst with rage too?

2.  People need to eat and do with what they can.  Ok so the snake is wriggling to death.  Are you so consumed with the process and not so much the end result?  When people need to eat, they will do anything.
1.  China is still in its industrialized age.  Look at 19th Century USA to early 20th century, or early 19th century Europe.

2.  There are 1.3 billion people.  We have 300 million.  Do you think we would run our country differently if our country was 4 times its current size?

3.  Really?  "long scientifically dis-proven medicine"?  Link me.  And also, tell me why the West FINALLY realized that tea had good effects on the health and well being of people YEARS after Chinese started drinking it.

4.  Sustainability?  Really?  Where in America are we doing this better?
"It's cultural, not ethnic"

You just proved to me that you don't understand China, or to be honest, any other foreign country.  China is going to act the way its going to act, and America is going to act the way its act.  Haters are going to hate, and you're more than welcome to be inflammatory, but I think your points are mostly ungrounded and based off of external viewing and experience.  We may not be importing animals illegally all over the place, but we sure do a hell of a lot of bad things here in the US too.

And yes, your accusations, very insulting.
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The point is - what they're doing is illegal. The rest of the world can get that. Why can't they? "Need to eat"? Bah. There's plenty of other things available to eat besides endangered species. That's what farming and cattle raising is for. If China can feed its hungry citizens with rare and endangered species, they can feed them with something that's regularly farmed or raised. Besides, the fact that these animals have to be illegally smuggled in would lead me to believe that they would cost the consumer more than something that was legal, so therefore the snake in question, for instance, is most likely considered to be a delicacy. That means that they're not eaten out of necessity, but rather because the population thinks they taste good.

I hate it when something like this comes up and the only argument that can be given is "Well, the U.S. isn't perfect. There's a lot of bad things here too." That's a rather impertinent point. Just because there's a lot of bad things happening in the U.S. doesn't make what China is doing anymore right or legal than it is. There are groups here that are against animal abuse - such as PETA. While I don't agree with all of their opinions, at least if you're going to use the "u.s. has bad stuff too" argument, you have to consider that someone is trying to make a difference. Furthermore, the U.S. has adopted policies to protect endangered species. While you can still argue that the U.S. isn't perfect when it comes to animal abuse and poaching of endangered species, you must consider that the U.S. has adopted policies to combat these things, whereas China, apparently, has not. That's the difference.
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Nov 19 2010, 02:38 AM (Post #20)
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QUOTE (Dancing Fool @ Nov 16 2010, 12:39 AM)
The point is - what they're doing is illegal.  The rest of the world can get that.  Why can't they?  "Need to eat"?  Bah.  There's plenty of other things available to eat besides endangered species.  That's what farming and cattle raising is for.  If China can feed its hungry citizens with rare and endangered species, they can feed them with something that's regularly farmed or raised.  Besides, the fact that these animals have to be illegally smuggled in would lead me to believe that they would cost the consumer more than something that was legal, so therefore the snake in question, for instance, is most likely considered to be a delicacy.  That means that they're not eaten out of necessity, but rather because the population thinks they taste good.

I hate it when something like this comes up and the only argument that can be given is "Well, the U.S. isn't perfect.  There's a lot of bad things here too."  That's a rather impertinent point.  Just because there's a lot of bad things happening in the U.S. doesn't make what China is doing anymore right or legal than it is.  There are groups here that are against animal abuse - such as PETA.  While I don't agree with all of their opinions, at least if you're going to use the "u.s. has bad stuff too" argument, you have to consider that someone is trying to make a difference.  Furthermore, the U.S. has adopted policies to protect endangered species.  While you can still argue that the U.S. isn't perfect when it comes to animal abuse and poaching of endangered species, you must consider that the U.S. has adopted policies to combat these things, whereas China, apparently, has not.  That's the difference.
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1. Who is the rest of the world?

2. "The rest of the world gets it". Please, don't say that -- the rest of the world runs on differing cultural values, and its the same thing with each country. You can't hold each country to the same set of cultural ideologies, because what works in America is not going to work in Mexico, Saudi Arabia, China, etc. I'll further this example:

a. If you do business in America, its business as usual. You meet, sign a contract, do whatever needs to be done.

b. If you do business in China, you first meet your partners, then you get to know them over a specific amount of time, and if they trust you enough, you get the deal. Otherwise you luck out.

c. If you do business in Saudi Arabia, you respect their customs when you go inside their buildings. If its a tent, you take off your shoes, no soles facing upwards or anywhere, because that's bad taste.

You're looking at a different set of cultural paradigms. America goes through this thing every day. When was the last time you insulted the French for being lazy? The Norwegians for being too socialist? The Japanese for being too sexual? Russians for drinking too much Vodka? Indians for too much allegiance to cows and smelling funny?

The point is, countries will do what countries feel like. You hate it, tough, get with the culture or get out. I know it sounds awfully harsh and that I'm making an excuse but that IS the point I'm trying to make. America has failed at this since trying its little Manifest Destiny thing for the past 150 years, going into countries and trying to install Democracy as if it were a software program.
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Nov 19 2010, 08:54 PM (Post #21)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 18 2010, 09:38 PM)
You're looking at a different set of cultural paradigms.� America goes through this thing every day.� When was the last time you insulted the French for being lazy?� The Norwegians for being too socialist?� The Japanese for being too sexual?� Russians for drinking too much Vodka?� Indians for too much allegiance to cows and smelling funny?�
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I think the whole point is that it's inhumane, nothing you listed really compares. I don't think anyone's picking on Chinese culture because it's simply "different". I think you're throwing a straw man argument. This isn't about China, it's about the practices in that article.

EDIT: And no, you're not the only one doing this, but say this were happening in Canada, and that there's no need to focus on something completely different that "we" are doing wrong, what's your opinion on the matter?

EDIT 2: Maybe something worth bringing up, what is your opinion on endangered species laws? Obviously you can't hold one group of people to a double-standard.

This post has been edited by AAAA: Nov 19 2010, 09:04 PM
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Nov 19 2010, 09:04 PM (Post #22)
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QUOTE (AAAA @ Nov 19 2010, 01:54 PM)
I think the whole point is that it's inhumane, nothing you listed really compares. I don't think anyone's picking on Chinese culture because it's simply "different". I think you're throwing a straw man argument. This isn't about China, it's about the practices in that article.

EDIT: And no, you're not the only one doing this, but say this were happening in Canada, and that there's no need to focus on something completely different that "we" are doing wrong, what's your opinion on the matter?
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That's the thing -- you're throwing a red herring into this entire issue by bringing in Canada.

The argument I've made all along and something that everyone except Jinghao has missed is that what China does here goes beyond the boundaries of ethics, morals and all the Western ideologies that we like to prop up everyday. Its CULTURAL. You simply cannot compare this to Canada because Canada is still in the West, just to our north and runs a government system similar to ours in that we both vote, and that we consider both sides of their system conservative and liberal as well. China is in the East, carries values way dissimilar to ours and to want to compare an apple to what looks like another apple just does not work. I mean, if you want to complain about China, why not ask why the Islamic culture flogs women? Or why the Ancient Greek Spartans left their kids to fend for themselves for awhile? What you may deem illegal now may also have been going on for thousands of years already too.

So focus back on the main idea of what Jinghao and I are trying to argue here. This has nothing to do with whether its illegal or not. Remember that this is illegal to YOU and to me because its a law put out by a specific entity out there. Its mainly cultural. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
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Nov 20 2010, 04:07 AM (Post #23)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 19 2010, 04:04 PM)
...
[It's] CULTURAL. 
...

So focus back on the main idea of what Jinghao and I are trying to argue here.  This has nothing to do with whether its illegal or not.  Remember that this is illegal to YOU and to me because its a law put out by a specific entity out there.  Its mainly cultural.  I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
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But don't you agree that the trend is/will be <i>toward</i> ending such practices that we consider to be inhumane/destructive? and thus that such "cultural" practices are ignorant and inferior? Sure, it's a judgment call, but since they will eventually end..it's just a matter of education and time...an appropriate judgment call?
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Nov 20 2010, 07:08 PM (Post #24)
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That depends on several factors, but given that Chinese people in China could care less about embracing Western values, your answer is likely to be no in the long run. However, observation of the younger generation and their love to emulate westerners may prove otherwise.
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Nov 21 2010, 02:28 AM (Post #25)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 20 2010, 02:08 PM)
That depends on several factors, but given that Chinese people in China could care less about embracing Western values, your answer is likely to be no in the long run.  However, observation of the younger generation and their love to emulate westerners may prove otherwise.
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You call them Western values, I call them civilized values. Enlightened, if you will. Advanced, if you will.

It may just be the Judeo-Christian in me that favors the "kosher" practices of slaughter and treatment of creatures.
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Nov 21 2010, 05:29 AM (Post #26)
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QUOTE (Jodi Gajadar @ Nov 20 2010, 07:28 PM)


It may just be the Judeo-Christian in me that favors the "kosher" practices of slaughter and treatment of creatures.
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Bingo. And this is why you can't argue cultural dominance and correctness over another.
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Nov 23 2010, 06:44 AM (Post #27)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 19 2010, 02:38 AM)
1.  Who is the rest of the world?

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*sigh*

http://www.listofcountriesoftheworld.com/


QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 19 2010, 02:38 AM)
2.  "The rest of the world gets it".  Please, don't say that -- the rest of the world runs on differing cultural values, and its the same thing with each country.  You can't hold each country to the same set of cultural ideologies, because what works in America is not going to work in Mexico, Saudi Arabia, China, etc.  I'll further this example:

a.  If you do business in America, its business as usual.  You meet, sign a contract, do whatever needs to be done.

b.  If you do business in China, you first meet your partners, then you get to know them over a specific amount of time, and if they trust you enough, you get the deal.  Otherwise you luck out.

c.  If you do business in Saudi Arabia, you respect their customs when you go inside their buildings.  If its a tent, you take off your shoes, no soles facing upwards or anywhere, because that's bad taste.

You're looking at a different set of cultural paradigms.  America goes through this thing every day.  When was the last time you insulted the French for being lazy?  The Norwegians for being too socialist?  The Japanese for being too sexual?  Russians for drinking too much Vodka?  Indians for too much allegiance to cows and smelling funny? 

The point is, countries will do what countries feel like.  You hate it, tough, get with the culture or get out.  I know it sounds awfully harsh and that I'm making an excuse but that IS the point I'm trying to make.  America has failed at this since trying its little Manifest Destiny thing for the past 150 years, going into countries and trying to install Democracy as if it were a software program.

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The first point I would like to make is that it sounds like you think I have a cultural bias - when this quote in and of itself: "America has failed at this since trying its little Manifest Destiny thing for the past 150 years, going into countries and trying to install Democracy as if it were a software program." just proves that your opinion is, indeed, very biased.

"You can't hold each country to the same set of cultural ideologies, because what works in America is not going to work in Mexico, Saudi Arabia, China, etc."

But countries that are part of some unifying body can get together, and collectively can ask another country that is part of this unifying body to change its policies for the good of all mankind. The U.N. does this. This is why there are international laws. If the rest of the planet is trying to preserve a species of albino whale and asks China not to kill one of the only two remaining, but Chinese whalers do anyway and the Chinese government does nothing about it, there's a problem there. It has nothing to do with culture. It has everything to do with China suddenly getting a boom in industry and not realizing, or not caring, what this boom does to their own eco system if programs are not installed to help protect against things like killing off endangered species, deforestation, polluted water supplies, etc.

You have to respect the land that you live on. If you do not, how can you expect the land to return anything to you? If you don't have fertile, unpolluted soil to grow crops, then you starve to death. If you destroy eco systems, then you destroy the game that you hunt to feed your family. These facts have nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with common sense. Don't toss your so called cultural clout around me with this argument because it doesn't have any place here.

Speaking of cultural clout - you're about the most culturally biased, and culturally ignorant person I think I've ever met. Why? Here's some examples, right from your own words:


"When was the last time you insulted the French for being lazy?" - The French are lazy? Do tell. I have never insulted the French for being lazy because they're not lazy, and that is a huge generalization against a specific country for someone who is so culturally sound, such as yourself.

"The Norwegians for being too socialist?" - That's not cultural, that's political.

"The Japanese for being too sexual?" - Any judgment made here would have to do with moral values - whether or not I believe that their sexual promiscuity is immoral or not. Yeah, I think they take it too far, but that has absolutely nothing to do with where you're from - for any person could engage in the acts of sexual immorality. This has less to do with culture and more to do with the moral and religious backgrounds of said people in question.

"Russians for drinking too much Vodka?" - Alcoholism is a problem all over the globe - this has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with the fact that alcohol is an addictive substance which needs to be consumed responsibly. To make the kind of generalization you just made there, that Russians drink too much vodka because it's there "culture" is just plain...stupid. Many people in many countries drink Vodka, and the only reason that you've followed this generalization is because Russia invented it, and it is their main alcohol of choice.

"Indians for too much allegiance to cows and smelling funny? " - Too much allegiance to cows? That's not cultural, that's religious. Smelling funny? That's a matter of personal taste. The last time I checked, not everyone from India smelled the same, and not everyone from India excreted a smell that would be considered, by all, to be "funny". Body odor has absolutely nothing to do with culture.

You know what else has absolutely nothing to do with culture? Your entire argument. I don't mean to be insulting, but you should avoid saying that people are culturally biased when it's quite obvious that you, yourself, suffer from the same problem.

This post has been edited by Dancing Fool: Nov 23 2010, 06:50 AM
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Nov 23 2010, 06:49 AM (Post #28)
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Please educate yourself on Chinese history and return to this debate afterwards. I don't think you'll understand China today without looking back first.
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Nov 23 2010, 06:54 AM (Post #29)
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QUOTE (HAHAHA @ Nov 19 2010, 04:04 PM)
That's the thing -- you're throwing a red herring into this entire issue by bringing in Canada.

The argument I've made all along and something that everyone except Jinghao has missed is that what China does here goes beyond the boundaries of ethics, morals and all the Western ideologies that we like to prop up everyday.  Its CULTURAL.  You simply cannot compare this to Canada because Canada is still in the West, just to our north and runs a government system similar to ours in that we both vote, and that we consider both sides of their system conservative and liberal as well.  China is in the East, carries values way dissimilar to ours and to want to compare an apple to what looks like another apple just does not work.  I mean, if you want to complain about China, why not ask why the Islamic culture flogs women?  Or why the Ancient Greek Spartans left their kids to fend for themselves for awhile?  What you may deem illegal now may also have been going on for thousands of years already too.

So focus back on the main idea of what Jinghao and I are trying to argue here.  This has nothing to do with whether its illegal or not.  Remember that this is illegal to YOU and to me because its a law put out by a specific entity out there.  Its mainly cultural.  I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
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Are you joking? I'm not comparing anything to Canada, I'm saying it doesn't matter where this is happening. Then you respond with "You simply cannot compare this to Canada because Canada is still in the West". Did you even read my post? This is showing your bias, this is exactly the double-standard that I was saying you had in my last post, and this just proves it.

So right after that, you repeat your broken fallacious argument by bringing up Islam and Ancient Greece. Yes I'm against those things you listed, start another thread for them if you want, this topic is about what's going on in China in that article. Are there practices elsewhere in the world that are worse? Undoubtedly. This isn't a relative argument, if one complains about one thing that he sees wrong, is he obligated to complain about everything else?

As far as the culture argument, that becomes something subjective. Does labeling something "culture" make it ok? I don't, I think it's hard to argue in favor of, say, Amazonian cannibalism (because screw legality).

Let's make something clear, I'm ambivalent as to what's going on in China, it probably shouldn't be done, but any opposition I'd have to it is because it's inhumane, not because it's different or strange to me, or because I'll never do it. But you're trying to defend this with virtually nothing. I do not think that one culture is superior to another, but you're making this argument just that.

And are you putting words into Jinghao's mouth? Nothing Jinghao said came even close to anything you did.
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Nov 23 2010, 06:56 AM (Post #30)
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QUOTE (Jodi Gajadar @ Nov 20 2010, 06:28 PM)
You call them Western values, I call them civilized values. Enlightened, if you will. Advanced, if you will.

It may just be the Judeo-Christian in me that favors the "kosher" practices of slaughter and treatment of creatures.
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Well now, I've been ignoring this discussion because it seemed too long-winded to follow but this is one extreme comment that I must disagree with.

To say that any set of values is more "civilized" or "enlightened" or "advanced" than another is very presumptuous. Of course, you may find them "superior" in your book, but that does not make them universally so.

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion on what they believe is the "best" but that is only true and valid in their mind. Any attempt to assert universality on that is just futile and incorrect.

I'm not saying I disagree with "western" values. I just don't think it is universally better than other values.
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